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Nicos
Joined: 08 Jun 2009
Posts: 9
Location: UK
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 Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Because, if science is not able to document at least one of these powers... Well, that must mean they're are useless to humanity... Or, more simply, that they don't exist...
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OR it means that SCIENCE (which is a continual work-in-progress anyhow) is not yet advanced enough.
Probably there is not much research being done (e.g. for fear of losing one's "scientific credibility", or it is just not profitable!), or it is being kept secret e.g. by government intelligence agencies. |
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Rik
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Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 1780
Location: Boxmeer, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Nicos wrote: | | Quote: | Because, if science is not able to document at least one of these powers... Well, that must mean they're are useless to humanity... Or, more simply, that they don't exist...
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OR it means that SCIENCE (which is a continual work-in-progress anyhow) is not yet advanced enough.
Probably there is not much research being done (e.g. for fear of losing one's "scientific credibility", or it is just not profitable!), or it is being kept secret e.g. by government intelligence agencies. |
There go the paranoia again >.>
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Quare? Quod vita mea non tua est. |
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Pluisje
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Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 550
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with OBE is that it seems to be infallible, or, it cannot be disproved which is a really big issue. In psychology (as a science), those concept that seem to explain everything but also cannot be disproven are considered theoretical but not real. So it's hard to discuss OBE's between people who do experience them (since experience is interpertation of a certain chain of events) and those who do not. |
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moonshine
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 45
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluisje wrote: | | The problem with OBE is that it seems to be infallible, or, it cannot be disproved which is a really big issue. In psychology (as a science), those concept that seem to explain everything but also cannot be disproven are considered theoretical but not real. So it's hard to discuss OBE's between people who do experience them (since experience is interpertation of a certain chain of events) and those who do not. |
Lets not forget that there are logical scientific explanations for OBE's too.
Its either a literal OBE experience, or its a Deliberately entered dream which the Astral Traveller doesn't recognise as such (A non-lucid dream if you like).
These a lot of support for one of these explanations, and next to none for the other.
The balance of probability must apply. |
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EyeAmTheSky
Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 95
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Nicos"] | Quote: | OR it means that SCIENCE (which is a continual work-in-progress anyhow) is not yet advanced enough.
Probably there is not much research being done (e.g. for fear of losing one's "scientific credibility", or it is just not profitable!), or it is being kept secret e.g. by government intelligence agencies. |
There are no fields where science has not at least tried an exploration. Science is not a dogma or a religion (I constantly repeat this, it's crazy people don't understand).
When the exploration leads nowhere, that's where science stops. If you want to propose a theory, you have to be able to test it. Otherwise, ok, it's a fiction (and I love true science fiction!). And so-called "paranormal phenomenons" have been studied, but leading quickly nowhere (dismissing the hypotheses) or finding plausible and verifiable explanations...
Now look at the world around you, closely, and then consider this affirmation: science has proven 99.9% of phenomena related to the paranormal to be in fact nonexistent, frauds, etc... Yet, people cling to these last 0.1%, seeking desperately wonderful revelations and hidden powers in the last fields where science is powerless today. Is the paradox not clear enough ?????
There will always be a kind of ever-shrinking "scientific dead-zone" where people will want to invent theories that will be useless to their peers and impossible to verify, even possibly socially dangerous theories. In the meantime, wonderful revelations and hidden powers could come out from the observation (scientific or not) of the world (if humanity can afford to pursue it through the near future...)
On the other hand, science, as it advances, shows more and more how wonderful and futile and lost beings we are in an apparently meaningless universe.
Fortunately, as oneironauts, we have one of the best ways to fight this disenchantment, exploring and experiencing the incredible resources of the human mind (or should I say... brain?)
Well, I love to invent wild concepts and theories when I plan to write a good science fiction story. But I don't sell it as facts. |
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EyeInTheSky
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There go the paranoia again >.> |
not really bud
its because people who think like you that people trying to spread the truth never get noticed. (no offense)
dont dismiss something just because your not aware of it... yet
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paulrb
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Why is it OBE's cannot be proven/disproven? I am talking about an OBE where people claim they are observing the real world.
Put a paper in a box (leaving the top open) with a word randomly selected from a list of 10,000 words. The person having the OBE is not allowed to look at this, until they have the OBE. Then they report what the word was. There is only a one in a hundred million chance they can succeed at this 2/2 times.
Have a camera in the room and make sure the person is only in the room when they are going to sleep/induce the OBE. |
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HaoAsakura
Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thunal wrote: | I believe all humans, and some animals and herbs are almighty. The power is only trapped in our bodies so we can't use it. If we die, we can use the power and therefore become god. The problem is, if we are dead, we don't have a brain so we don't care about power and just wander around in the netherworld (or was it the Netherlands?).
There was one person, though, who wanted to use the power. He will become god and make himself man, to tell the world of this enormous power.
Too bad he is not bound to time anymore, and therefore it can take some time (or eternity) before he comes. But I am a prophet, to tell you all this marvelous story, of HE who was everything, and made himself nothing to tell us.
| EyeAmTheSky wrote: |
Because, if science is not able to document at least one of these powers... Well, that must mean they're are useless to humanity... Or, more simply, that they don't exist... |
That's what you were talking about? |
I believe indeed humans can ascend into Godhood, but I dont think this is an state you outright get when you die, you must reach it you dont outright get there upon death, my opinion. |
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HaoAsakura
Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| paulrb wrote: | Why is it OBE's cannot be proven/disproven? I am talking about an OBE where people claim they are observing the real world.
Put a paper in a box (leaving the top open) with a word randomly selected from a list of 10,000 words. The person having the OBE is not allowed to look at this, until they have the OBE. Then they report what the word was. There is only a one in a hundred million chance they can succeed at this 2/2 times.
Have a camera in the room and make sure the person is only in the room when they are going to sleep/induce the OBE. |
Even if that person did, that wouldnt convince the scientist, they would want to put you in a laboratory under controlled conditions to prove it, and this is stress, thus harder and in these cases probably morons like James Randi will get involved who will make sure the test is if possible unpassable. |
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Chaser
Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| HaoAsakura wrote: |
Even if that person did, that wouldnt convince the scientist, they would want to put you in a laboratory under controlled conditions to prove it, and this is stress, thus harder and in these cases probably morons like James Randi will get involved who will make sure the test is if possible unpassable. |
Yeah, damn those scientists and their "controlled experiments", always looking for that "reliable evidence" crap, am I right?
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Rik
Moderator
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 1780
Location: Boxmeer, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Chaser wrote: | | HaoAsakura wrote: |
Even if that person did, that wouldnt convince the scientist, they would want to put you in a laboratory under controlled conditions to prove it, and this is stress, thus harder and in these cases probably morons like James Randi will get involved who will make sure the test is if possible unpassable. |
Yeah, damn those scientists and their "controlled experiments", always looking for that "reliable evidence" crap, am I right?
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God, I hope that was sarcasm. |
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Chaser
Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote: | | Chaser wrote: | | HaoAsakura wrote: |
Even if that person did, that wouldnt convince the scientist, they would want to put you in a laboratory under controlled conditions to prove it, and this is stress, thus harder and in these cases probably morons like James Randi will get involved who will make sure the test is if possible unpassable. |
Yeah, damn those scientists and their "controlled experiments", always looking for that "reliable evidence" crap, am I right?
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God, I hope that was sarcasm. |
From me, of course it was sacasm.
I find it sad that in this day and age that could possibly be taken seriously by anyone :/ |
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Rawn
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
Posts: 53
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Ok...I am new to this site, and I am surprised at the debate here.
I have had both LD and OBE experiences and can tell you that they are "experientailly" very different experiences.
The main difference in an OBE is that (in my experiences), there is a huge release of energy that rushes up the spine and literally pushes my consciousness up and out of my body, so that I am then able look down at my "sleeping" body and go out in a formless state to explore the world around me which is in all appearances the same physical world we recognize in the waking state, it is just sort of illuminated in some sort of twilight light from no real source.
But since in this state is not really limited by the usual physical senses, we can then perceive things in ways beyond our physical limits (but this is also true of LD)
The difference is that in the OBE state we have alot (if not all) our consciousness active in an exploration that is near around the physical levels of life, whereas in the LD state we have lesser levels of awareness, but are able to explore other states further away from the physical world.
I am sure that both experiences are related, and once we learn to actively access all those different awareness levels at will, then we can truly unite the experiences as one....but until then they are for all intents and purposes different experiences.
Rawn |
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matrixjoker
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
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well ghosts cant be proven with any scientific method, and probably never will, so does that mean when people see ghosts on cameras or the effects of ghosts they are fake or a "dream" as some would probably say here?you try to say its all a dream, well then prove it scientifically of course. for every said proof there will be someone who will not accept that as "proof"
ww.nderf.org/FAQs.htm
ww.victorzammit.com/articles/lawyerrebutspsychologynde.html
ww.near-death.com/evidence.html
ww.medscape.com/viewarticle/717604
For example, there are numerous occasions where an individual has perceived events in real time outside his/her body which they should not be capable of-- for example, seeing objects in a location removed from their body; hearing conversations of friends/family in places outside the hospital; being aware of the actions of doctors/nurses despite not being able to see.
Science has not yet been able to reconcile these "abilities" with the phenomenon as of yet.
It's physiologically impossible for the congenitally blind to have visual hallucinations. That's not opinion, that's fact. As for knowing whether it was vision or not, you'd have to be familiar with the specific cases.
Bradley Barrows for example:
ww.youtube.com/watch?v=wNpp-8_XeSo
His case is documented in the book Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind where it goes into more detail.
Near Death Experience - Blind woman SEES while OUT OF BODY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbtoX3Q5OI
Born blind never able to dream, never able to hallucinate.
I've merged your posts for you. Please use 'edit'-button to add something to a previous post. ~TLS |
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matrixjoker
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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