Awareness a precursor to lucidity?

[n8b]

I'm not exactly sure how to word this...But I was just curious if anybody has had any dreams where they have the same sort of awareness as waking life but don't necessarily become lucid. And if so do you think this awareness is necessary to become lucid? Basically I'm wondering do you become aware and then become lucid or do you become lucid and then aware? Or is there even a distinction between the two? Any thoughts?

[spike8742]

I don't think that there is a distinction between the two. Lucid, means that you're conscious, aware. As hungarian, first I was surprised why they call lucid dreams, as lucid dreams, because it's inaccurate. In hungarian they call lucid dreams as conscious dreams, as they do sometimes in english.

More awareness, can help to achieve more, and better quality lucid dreams, but I think, it's not fully necessary to become lucid in your dreams. So far, I have had only short lucid dreams, and there were ones which had bad quality and in which my awareness, or consciousness was not that good either, but I knew I was dreaming.

[Rik]

I don't think that awareness is a precursor to being lucid. Just this night, I had a dream in which I flew, with no awareness at all (I mean, I was flying and I was not thinking rationally), and then all of a sudden, I landed and knew it was a dream. I didn't have full lucidity, but I knew that it was a dream.
So, no, I don't think the awareness has to be a precursor to lucidity. It just depends on how you get lucid. I think I got lucid by the simple connection of flying-lucidity (since flying is my no. 1 dream activity) in my mind, so awareness wasn't required. If you're recognizing dreamsigns, however, then the awareness might be required.
_________________
Quare? Quod vita mea non tua est.

[Lence]

[n8b]

Yeah, I guess awareness is a pretty broad term. What I was getting at was the decision making ability and clearness of thought that you have in waking life. I think maybe attention is a better word than awareness. Attention to detail and attention to your thoughts and surroundings. I notice that in some dreams I have more of an ability to pay attention to things than in other dreams. In this type of dream it is easier to notice oddities making it much more likely that I'll perform a reality check. Even though I don't become lucid in some of these dreams I still consider them a higher level dream than my ordinary dreams. I think attention is a skill that can be worked on in waking life and transfer to dreams. If you could develop that attention to detail in dreams (or awareness) it would be much more likely that you'd become lucid rather than just hoping that you do a RC out of habit.

[Rik]

Well, from what I've read, most of your waking cognition is preserved during dreaming, with the exception of metacognition: the ability reflect on what you're thinking and what is happening. For example, you might dream of swimming downstream a river to get to class/work and in the dream, you might think to yourself that it will be difficult to get back through the current.
That's an example of waking cognition and logical tought in the dreamstate. That it's weird that you're swimming to get to class/work doesn't occur to you, because you're metacognitively impaired.
_________________
Quare? Quod vita mea non tua est.

[n8b]

So if you take special note of metaconition during waking life it should enhance it during dreams, no? i.e. while you're driving to work you take a moment to reflect that it's normal to be driving whereas it would be strange it you were swimming.

[Rik]

That may work, but I think the problem with that approach lies in the fact that you'll have to use metacognition to think about reflecting upon that, unless you use some other system in your brain, like habit (critical state technique), prospective memory (MILD) or moods (LDD).
_________________
Quare? Quod vita mea non tua est.

[sageous]

[Rik]

Sageous, I wrote a long-ass reply only to realize that the point just didn't come across. What I meant was that in non-lucid dreams, self-awareness and the ability to reflect on your actions is usually not present. I also said that awareness does not have to be a precursor to lucidity.
For lucidity, yes, that awareness has to be present. Of course it has to be.

Also, to clear up my post: I doubted n8b's method would work because there is a distinct lack of metacognition in non-lucid dreaming.


This topic is about awareness before getting lucid. What happens after getting lucid (ie. being lucid) in terms of cognition is irrelevant for this discussion, since we're not discussing lucidity and it's particular cognitive characteristics.
_________________
Quare? Quod vita mea non tua est.

[n8b]

I don't think we're arguing the definition of lucidity here. I think my problem was that I tried to generalize my question rather than just posting about my experiences. So here is what I mean when I talk about awareness as a precursor to lucidity. I'm kind of stepping inside the process of becoming lucid within the dream. It's a very subtle thing I'm talking about and the only words available to describe it have very broad definitions, but here goes.

In a lucid dream, there is usually a portion where you are not lucid, then you do a reality check and become lucid. Before I become lucid, there is usually a moment in a dream where I suddenly find myself "waking up". It's like I'm able to step back and separate myself from everything that is happening around me and just listen and see, with awareness. This also happens in waking life sometimes and I would argue that most of us spend a great deal of our time unaware (on autopiolit).

So this just happens spontaneously. Not necessarily because I've noticed a dreamsign or performed a reality check. This will cause me to perform a reality check, if I'm dreaming I'll usually become lucid. But basically when this "waking up" happens that is when the clarity of the dream begins for me. It's kind of a gray area because I'm aware and thinking but I don't know whether I'm dreaming or not. But when I look back my memory of the event is very clear, as if I were lucid. I'm not actually testing reality yet, but I'm just taking a few moments to look around and notice things before I ask myself whether I'm dreaming or not.

So I'm by no means trying to rewrite the definition of lucidy. Maybe I'm just trying to delve a little deeper into the process of how lucidity arises within the dream. That grey area in the transition from non-lucid into lucidity. Those few seconds where you notice a change in your awareness and you begin to wonder, are you in fact inside of a dream?

[Gold]

Deep discussion, this, and my language skills are not quite up for the task of trying to formulate accurate wordings of my definition of "awareness".
Some reflections though:

Its common for me to get aware of the fact that I am dreaming, still, the step from there to what I define as lucidity if big - and - at most occations I fail to get lucid cause I feel so comfortable with the fact that I know I am dreaming. So, I fail to take command over the dream and whats left is just a memory of a reflection - which is quite annoying when you wake up and see what you missed.

I think I am often satisfied with the dream as it is, and miss out of the opportunity, because of my lazieness. Or maybe I am just too tired...

I dont really understand the question. The only way to be really aware is to do a WILD, but when I do a WILD I am actually quite dizzy until I get into the dream, then I dont feel tired anymore and am so to speak much more awake then just before.

[sageous]

[Rik]

[Presence]