Supplements, neurotransmitters, neurochemistry

[markmarijnissen]

Hi everybody,

I recently have read the book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" from Yuschak. It explains short the basic neurochemistry of the brain when dreaming, and then gives detailed information on a couple of over-the-counter supplements.

The general idea is to tweak the neurotransmitters a bit, to create more ideal circumstances for WILD (which are more vived and lucid experiences than DILDs).

While the supplements are over-the-counter medicine in the United States, some key supplements aren't availabe in the Netherlands (Galantamine, a acetylcholine-esterase-inhibitor - it's a prescription alzheimer medicine here!).

I want to gain better understanding of the underlying processes in the brain when lucid dreaming. Or better: what are the physiological, psychological and pharmacological (chemical) factor that contribute to lucid dreaming, and how can you improve them?

Almost all literature only talks about the psychological dimension, but the biological dimension is forgotten!

I want to write an article on the neurochemistry and physiology of sleep, and on what points you can intervene. Also correlations between neurochemistry, physiology and psychology are interesting. Does high motivation (psyhologie) activate the dopaminergic (neurochemistry) system in the forebrain (physiology, anatomy)? Keeping high motivation is one way, but taking mucana pruriens which contains L-Dopa raises dopamine levels and this way you can work on lucid dreaming from two perspectives. Of course health is placed first!

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but my question is: Has any one have ideas, experiences, knowlegde about this?

[Tim]

Hi Mark,

Foremost, welcome to the forum! It pleases me to read you are interested in writing an article on lucid dreaming. Although I'm an educational researcher myself, I am well aware of the interest of biochemists to discover the supplements needed to quicken the induction of lucid dreams in a neurophysiological fashion (I still prefer my own techniques though ).

Similar to you, I also read the ALD book recently but wasn't very impressed however. A lot (read: a lot!!) of talk on biochemistry but nothing that really struck my attention as a lucid dreamer nor as an educational researcher. Nonetheless, I would like to share an initial thought.

Based on my educational understanding of lucid dreaming, I would start charting out the neurophysiology of the frontal lobe of the brain, especially the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. This particular brain area shows activation at the occurance of lucidity during dreaming. An interesting focal point for researching the 'lucid dreaming brain'.

Because the DPC is known for being related to working memory, and 'prospective memory' (which is one of the functions of working memory) is related to the effectiveness of recognizing dreamsigns while dreaming (and thus having lucid dreams), the stimulation of the specific biochemistry of the DPC could be beneficial.

All key techniques for inducing lucid dreaming are centered around the skill in prospective "remembering"; remembering to recognize dreamsigns when they arise. Maybe some specific supplements can lend us a hand in stimulating the DPC, consequently our skill in prospective remembering, resulting in a better chance to recognize dreamsigns and become lucid?

Keep us informed on your progress!

PS. I know from recent research articles that I've read, that the Lucidity Institute is aiming for the same thing. Is this really going to be the future?
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[Oneironaut2]

Not to screw up this whole topic with my non-knowledge of your funky science language, but isn't dopamine that crazy drug you can take to get really messed up? I knew a kid who had seizures all the time that was prescribed dopamine, and I took one (It knocked me on my ass so bad I thought I was gonna have a seizure myself ). Fun and all but you will not catch me ever ingesting that again .

[markmarijnissen]

@oneaironout2
dopamine is a neurotransmitter, e.g., a chemical used to carry the electronic action potential from one neuron to another.

It's only the dose that makes the poison, is often said. On top of that, you should know what you are doing: for example taking laxatives when your healthy isn't a very good idea, but when constipated it's a good thing to do.

@Tim
I wasn't impressed of the book either: The explanation of the general theory isn't satisfactory, it's a bit simple (as if he explaines it to a 15-year old who's still in high school or something). It doesn't paint the complete picture - troughout the book he mentions things / effect that I didn't knew be reading the theory chapters only.
The supplement prescriptions are very practical, he has done a lot of experimenting and it's good that he wrote his expierences downt. I also like his attitude, to place health first, to counter tolerance and desensitivation.
I read the two scientific articles on his page. The quality was mediocre or poor. Also he mentions that it isn't the cholinergic stimulation that does the trick, but specific cholinergic stimulation that activates "specific centers in the forebrain". He said something like that. He doesn't bother to seek that out.

Well it's my plan to research literature to provide a better framework for that. Somehow the "psychological" techniques must correlate with the neurochemical approach. Which variables play a role? I know prospectie memory (from LaBerge's MILD) plays a role, this can be measured... and this correlates with a place in the brain. Also motivation and intention plays a role. Can this be measured? It certainly has it's place in the brain (although i have to research which one it was). Are the other factors? Self-reflective awareness?

Then there are the neurochemical variables: levels of neurotransmitter, levels of activation of ****nergic systems. I'm hoping i can all integrate them into one model.

This way, I hope to come up with supplements (since galantamine is not available here), find neurochemical support for psychological techniques and vica versa. and the most important: find measurable variables that can predict how succesfull you'll be with lucid dreaming - and maybe give acces points or ideas to come up with techniques or supplements to positively alter these variables!

So, thats my goal. Glad i defined that! I found that a bit difficult yesterday. Do you know where I can acces literatue btw? I have acces to PsycInfo and others trough the Radboud university. You said you've read recent literature of the lucidity institute.. ?

I know have some articles about sleep physiology printed (the article Yuschak mentions when explaining his theoretical framework), i have my medicine books on pharmacology and biochemistry and i have EWLD and the tibetan yogis of dream and sleep. I'm a little afraid that i miss important findings and literature!

(Btw, about me: I'm a 20 year old student, i did one year medicine, but i quit and now i follow Artifical Intelligence bachelor. I'm interested in lucid dreaming since i was... 14 of 15 years old? Although i certainly have some experience with it, i nevercould intentionaly lucid dream)

[Tim]

Check. Well, what really helped me understanding the neurophysiology of the dreaming brain, was this research bundle called 'Sleep and dreaming'. I refer to this literature in one of my YouTube lessons (part two, I guess).
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[Oneironaut2]

@markmarijnissen

I agree with you thanks for the info.

[guayusa]

Just wanted to inform you of the plant Ilex Guayusa of wich a tea is brewd . It lowers colesterol and calms worried stomachs besides improving dreamrecall and promoting lucid dreams:) its healthy its tasty and is not classified as narcotic in any nation world wide!! google it if you want to try it, i really recommend it!! its used by the jivaro indians of the amazon for everyday LD rituals, take care!!

[misterjip]

HI everyone,

I have also read Thomas Y's book on advanced LD, and I did have success with his technique the one or two times i tried it; the effectiveness isn't the issue though, I suppose. The thing I found to be most interesting was near the end of the book, chapter 23, "Breaking Down the Wall". He states his belief that the main barrier between dreaming and waking life is the loss of memory we experience while going to sleep / waking up. This is most often realized as the inabilty to remember our dreams, but plays just as important of a role in preventing lucidity, i.e. "forgetting" that you are dreaming. His suggestion is to bridge the gap from both sides by not only keeping an up-to-date dream journal, but also trying to exercise recall of waking events while you are dreaming.
Now, i haven't had the opportunity to try this technique, but it seemed like a good direction to take.

(ps- I'm new to this site, just signed up, so this practice may already be advocated here. If so, I apologize)

[Sam Spade]

Please allow me to share my story with you.

I experimented with Lucid Dreaming in my late twenties and had moderate success with it. That was more than a dozen years ago. Since then, life (especially marriage and children) crowded out that type of activity for me.

Recently I had a strange dream which renewed my interest in the subject again. I was amazed not only the progress that has been made in the science and techniques, but also the growth of the LD community. (I credit the internet with the boom).

Along with other books, I read "Advanced Lucid Dreaming". I was skeptical but intrigued. I was worried that my Lucid Dreaming days were over because the nature of my life and even the way I sleep has totally changed since my first Lucid Dream experiences.

This post is already getting too long so I'll skip to the point. I tired the supplements in the form of "Lucid Dreamer" capsules from dreamamins.com. When I say that I was skeptical, that is an understatement. I am a police detective and very skeptical about everything! In fact I was worried about a "reverse" placebo effect. I was afraid that my attitude might counteract the effects of the supplements.

BAM!
I had the greatest Lucid Dream of my life! You can read it on the public post : Sam Spade "Brittney and Justin" (sorry for the cheesy title) The only reason I didn't give the dream five stars is because I think I can do even better in the future.

I have had at least one lucid dream every time I have taken the supplements. The only thing that keeps me from having a Lucid Dream every night is Thomas Yuschak's warning about tolerance and desensitization.

Is this a short cut...absolutely, but for a man who has too much going on to devote himself properly to the discipline, it is awesome!

Sorry for the long post, please feel free to ask my any questions.

Sam Spade